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They might well have been formed at the same time and have formed a promiscuous messy entity of sticky molecules. You wrote "the authors are not very clear about this point", indeed I agree. It is a hypothesis, there is no proof whatsoever and they don't claim to prove anything. Natural selection then favors the cells that are autonomous, that means that they are able to regulate their osmosis by means of ionchannels and antiporters. I think this work should be considered as a step from geochemistry to biology, which is a very important step. These became the carriers of the amino acids and determined the genetic code. This means it is quite possible that there is no need for DNA to code for proteins. But than again, the membrane RNA would have to be as complex as the protein The formation of peptide bonds within the ribosome is still catalyzed by a ribozyme. And I think that the publication is creative and innovative and tit contains beautiful insights. Keuringsdienst van Waarde. Are they present in large amounts? So I agree with you that this part of the story remains obscure and that the authors are not very clear about this point. Problem: ribozymes themselves need to be long and complex. Therefore their hypothesis shows how life could have got started from inanimated matter. They presume there has been a moment in the rise of the first cells that DNA or RNA were coding for proteins, but they don't know either when and how. For this specific action no enzymatic activity of a protein is needed. Has the Orgin Of Life been solved?{/INSERTKEYS}{/PARAGRAPH} See the following article and watch figure 1. For example: 'Peptide bond formation by in vitro selected ribozymes'. Secondly, if such a protein existed, there is no way to encode it in DNA or RNA because the central dogma of molecular biology states that information is only permitted to go from dna or rna to proteins and not back. Dus als je die eet werk je mee aan slavernij. And also both random dna and proteins could be produced at the same time I assume. I don't know what small molecule that is, maybe Nand can help us out it looks like some kind of cholesterol. Besides, the central dogma is valid for our actual world. How specific are they? As you stated yourself the article is about the origin of membrane bioenergetics and not about the origin of DNA. I thought it was a law of nature. I am a little surprised you agree completely with my criticism. I have no evidence for these statements because it simply is what I understood of what 'origin of life-scientists' think. So they just skipped it and presume there has been a way to code for the membranal proteins channels and antiporters. Ribozymes might have been able of catalyzing some peptide binding. Marleen, about small molecules and the central dogma: in figure 1 of the article 'Small molecules: the missing link in the central dogma' we see a blue arrow from RNA to Proteins and not back to RNA. My point is: the chance production of a functional membrane protein is close to zero. Ribozymes might have been able catalyzing some peptide binding. All kinds of molecules were able to accumulate in these micropores, so as we discussed under my blog, it is very well possible that macromolecules as proteins and RNA or DNA arose by a slow random association between their respective monomers. Their study of acetogens and methanogens supports very well this idea. I expected a strong defense of the article because you were so excited about it. And that is exactly the central dogma. If you don't mind I would like to answer the question you asked Nand with no. Too much in one step. Er is echter ook een Fair Produce keurmerk voor Ned champignons die goede arbeidsomstandigheden garanderen. Maybe there will be some more information in the book Life's Ratchet by Peter M. Ribonucleic acids are far too hydrophilic to sit in an hyrdrophobic place as the cell membrane. Note that it is relatively old, so maybe now there is known more about these molecules 3. So the central dogma is not violated. The purpose of my question was if membrane rna could replace membrane proteins it could solve the problem of the Lane-Martin model. As we may conclude from the comment by Bastiaan, ribozymes are able to catalyze peptide bonds. Rules may have been different in the primordial world. But this is not really helpfull. The publication ought to be clear about this. Neither do I know whether all this is a realistic possibility under pre-biotic conditions. The authors state that the discussion on how information molecules come into being is beyond the scope of this publication. Hi Marleen, thanks for your very fast response! Do you know something about this? Gert, I guess Lane and Martin didn't want to address the whole discussion on the origin of the code. It might be possible that membrane proteins were synthesized from RNA. Also I think there needs to be information to make these proteins. I don't know very much about it, but it seems that small molecules might be able to escape the central dogma. Is it? I had a hard time disentangling different stages of their model. What they show is where and how membranes and active ion pumping might have originated. Can ribozymes be inherited if the cell splits in two? As the authors state, the whole process they describe precedes the origin of replicators. I don't know if this is enough to produce complete membrane enzymes. But that life started in the hydrothermal vents by means of protongradients remains a very nice and convincing hypothesis. It is shown that protocells might have developed in these vents. There might have existed the socalled ribonucleoproteins that were able to synthesize proteins. Nand, would it be chemically possible that a rna molecule would be sitting in a membrane? The publication tells a lot about the Origin of Membrane Bioenergetics, but not enough about the origin of life to be a succesful theory. I did not know this or forgot it. They might well have been formed at the same time I do not object to the possibility that random rna or dna polymeres could be produced. Marleen wrote: It is very well possible that macromolecules as proteins and RNA or DNA arose by a slow random association between their respective monomers. I was not aware that membrane lipids are genetically coded for. This problem is not clear at all yet for anyone. {PARAGRAPH}{INSERTKEYS}But a protocell needs a lot of these proteins and it is very unlikely to find more than one protein with the same function just by casual arrangement of amino acids. Having said that, I still hold it possible they could clarify the matter and improve it. Nand: the point is that there must be a relation between dna and proteins such that dna encodes proteins called the genetic code. Following your points: 1. Whether random proteins could be produced is a matter for chemists to decide. But considering what I wrote before it is possible to imagine that with a slow but steady increase in complexity of the molecules RNA, ribozymes, ribosomes, peptides there might have been the development of tRNA's. However, the idea that monomers may accumulate and polymerise where there is formation of small oligomeres and peptides is not a process that goes against the central dogma. Gert, This work shows where the energy comes from, how it could have been conserved and, with the help of mineral catalysts, how it could have been used for chemical reactions of organic molecules. Marleen said "4. Want het blijkt dat Nederlandse champignons worden geproduceerd onder slechte arbeidsomstandigheden. So the model is too crude, it contains insufficient detail to decide whether the model could be true. I am curious what others have to say But then, if you agree with my criticism, you can not claim that "their hypothesis shows how life could have got started from inanimated matter. We cannot decide whether membrane proteins predate the origin of genes and proteins. Marleen, thanks for a number of interesting suggestions! If anybody knows more, please let me know. Het gaat om witte champignons in die blauwe bakjes. The first ribozymes however were not encoded for by DNA but might have been inherited all the same during cell fission and division of the cytoplasm with its content. But the crucial question is this: does the Lane-Martin model rely on the presence of a membrane protein to generate all the energy necessary for all biochemical synthesis BEFORE the dna-protein world? So the question is: is it possible that randomly developed information carriers as RNA and DNA coexisted with small randomly formed proteins? Yes or NO? They have the same properties as ribosomes although they work less efficiently. For what concerns your update, I agree with you that the authors make this strange statement.